Global citizenship with Andrew Henderson, Nomad Capitalist

Andrew Henderson is the Founder and CEO of Nomad Capitalist, the world's leading offshore consulting firm dedicated to helping clients make informed decisions on the best countries to invest, start a business and live in.

Andrew has helped over 2,000 UHNW individuals go offshore and his YouTube channel has over 750,000 subscribers.

Nomad Capitalist Live, Nomad Capitalist's annual event, will be held in Kuala Lumpur this September 25th through 28th.

Transcript

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the INSEAD Emerging Markets Podcast. I'm your host, Nick Lall, and I am here today with the nomad capitalist, Andrew Henderson, founder of the world's number one offshore firm. Nomad Capitalist has helped over 2,000 high net worth individuals go offshore, preserve their wealth, and attain unparalleled global freedom. Andrew has become probably the leading voice for those living international lifestyles. He's been featured in pretty much every major publication, and his YouTube channel has over 750,000 subscribers. As a side note, I'll be speaking about Frontier Markets this year at Nomad Capitalist Live, Nomad Capitalist's annual event. Tony Fernandez, CEO of AirAsia, will be keynoting and I know they have a lot of other great speakers lined up. Past speakers at the event include Jim Rogers and Robert Kiyosaki. If you're interested in investing in emerging markets and want more in-depth information than you can get from podcasts or other online content, I definitely recommend you joining us in KL this September. Beyond that, Andrew is a personal friend. I've worked with him and known him for close to a decade now. He's actually the one who played the biggest role in getting me to first leave the US and live in emerging market countries like Malaysia. So really happy to reconnect, really happy to see the success you've had. And I always knew you were doing something special, very bright and incredibly talented guy. It's always really turned on. So it's really special to have you on the podcast. Those from the NCI community who may not have heard of Andrew, I think a lot of you are probably already living pretty international lifestyles, but I think you'll still be blown away by this conversation and by what Andrew has to offer. So I think for us to get started, maybe you could just give a brief overview of what Nomad Capitalists do and what some of the solutions you offer Well, it's a beautiful introduction. Thank you. I mean, my guiding philosophy in life is go where you're treated best. And I looked around as a child and looked around as a young adult once I got into business in the United States. And we were just talking about you have some people that you know who live right down the street from where I lived for a period of time. And I think the US and a lot of other Western countries are going in the wrong direction. I don't think it's the best place to be for many things. And so what I did was I went out on a goal to diversify myself. And every year I learn new stuff. And every year I diversify more. My finances, my freedom and my lifestyle. And so I'm a happier person, you know, certainly happier than 10 years ago. I think I'm a more free person. Just looking at the last couple of years and what's happened. And I think I'm a wealthier person because I've been able to reduce my tax rate and invest in things that Jim Rogers told us that nomadic capitalists, live Americans can't invest in. So I ultimately detached myself from the US. And so I think our clients do the same and we help them find ways to legally reduce their taxes. There's a lot of nuance to it, especially if you're an American, but even if you're not, it gets harder every year. There's a lot of places that you probably didn't realize were tax friendly, whether it's Ireland or Italy, or you mentioned Malaysia. I mean, these countries have taxes, but there's ways foreigners can move there and potentially pay very, very little, if not zero legally. So we help people do that. We help people get the residence permits and the second citizenships in those places to make sure they're protected. We help people buy homes around the world to have places to go. Robert Kiyosaki told us that three years ago, where can you be in three days? Have a home, have a place to go, be able to get into the country, have a passport, not just your home country passport. And I think when you do all that, it inspires you to look at, can you date people from other cultures? Can you raise your kids in other cultures? How do you protect your privacy in other countries? I mean, that's what we help people do. And I mean, we're adding now HR services. We've really beefed up HR. We have people all around the world. We've learned a lot of very hard lessons. If you're going to be an international company, you're probably not going to keep your entire US staff unless they're going to move. So how are you going to find people? How do the different cultures work? I mean, it was really trying to build the most holistic, internationally focused consultancy for entrepreneurs and investors based on all the struggles and the frustrations that Yeah, and I think maybe that could be a good segue into talking a bit about your origin story. What was it that initially got you interested in living internationally? And then what led you to found Nomad Capitalist and provide the service that you offer? guess I was always a very curious kid. I was reminded yesterday, I learned all the US presidents when I was six years old. That's what I was spending my time doing. I lived up until about eight years old in a somewhat rural area. And so I spent a lot of time on my own learning stuff. And I developed this kind of fascination with maps and the rest of the world. And so one thing kind of came another. We did a little bit of international travel when I was a kid. So I got some opportunities to see that. And I remember, you know, back in 1993, I went to Portugal, and they were telling us that some of their leaders were going to the US for healthcare because the system there wasn't reliable enough. And yet, you know, so you realize kind of this arbitrage opportunity, you live in Portugal, but you may not rely on Portugal for your healthcare. And so as I got older, my father would read articles from the Wall Street Journal and other business magazines to us around the got my father older, would read articles from the Wall Street Journal and other business magazines to us around the kitchen table. And it would talk about how the US, you know, dropped from fourth to sixth in global economic freedom. And Singapore was now this, you know, look at what they're doing. And he made it clear to me early on, he said, there's going to be places that are going to be better than where you're from today. He's like, for my lifetime, my father's lifetime, for his father's and mother's lifetime, the U.S. was the place to be. And so you watch a guy like Warren Buffett say he primarily invests in the U.S. Now you see he's done a great job investing in these Soka Shoshas in Japan. They've done, you know, Japan's went out so we can all over or what do you mean yeah i think we can mean yeah i think we can we can we can start over sorry about that just from that just from that question yeah speaking of the u.s no longer being number one i've never had issues like this in malaysia so right um so yeah going back back to that, we got disconnected for a second, but I asked Andrew a bit about his origin story and what inspired him to launch Nomad Capitalist. fascinated by traveling the world from a very early age. I grew up in an area that didn't have a lot of kids up until like seven or eight years old. So I learned a lot of stuff on my own, kind of developed that lifelong learning mentality. And we did a little bit of international travel, got to see people in Europe who would come to the US for healthcare. And back in 1993, and you'd be like, okay, well, they live there, but they get healthcare here. And just the seed was planted that you can arbitrage different countries. And then when I got older, my father would come home with the Wall Street Journal or various business magazines, and he would talk about, you know, the U.S. dropped another ranking for economic freedom or whatever. And he was pretty clear. He said, you know, if you're a young entrepreneur, if you're in your teens in the 1990s, you are going to have a world ahead of you where the U.S. is not going to be as dominant of a force and there's going to be better places to go. And so he was very clear, I mean, for his lifetime and for his parents' lifetime, it was the place to be. And so when you look at investors like Warren Buffett, you know, they primarily focused on the U.S. and so have their acolytes, the Bill Ackman's, for example. But I think it's kind of based on this sort of flawed, I mean, that's what worked when Warren Buffett was born. I mean, he lived a life when the U.S. was largely a dominant country. It's only towards the end of his life where a lot of the cracks are showing. And by the way, Warren Buffett, I mean, he's done a great job investing in the Soba Shoshas in Japan and Japanese markets are back at three and a half decade highs. So I just think that there's tremendous opportunities all around the world. And I really kind of, as I entered my business career, 19, 20 years old, after dropping out of college, I started to instantly notice as I started to pay a lot of taxes and just, you know, maybe didn't have the social connection in the United States that I would have liked and that I traveled and I found better social connections. And yeah, I just think all that put together is, you know, the place where you're born, they're probably going to tell you that they're number one, but there's so many opportunities. And even if you don't want to leave the U.S., even if you're willing to ride it out, and even if you aren't as frustrated as I am by some of the people beating each other's throats and the political issues, just all the chaos, even if you can live with that, I think that you'll see better returns long-term overseas. And especially if you do it yourself and you get involved at more of a granular level with people who are on the ground and not buy an ETF. So yeah, when I first started reading your articles back in 2014, at that time, digital nomads were just first starting to become more of a mainstream concept and people were just starting to realize that life might be better outside the US. Since that time, just globally, things have changed so much, whether it's politically or because of COVID. And you definitely were doing really well when I first connected with you in 2015. But from what I've seen, your business has also really gone to a much higher level since then. So I was wondering how this has changed the services that you offer or just how your business has evolved since that time. I that the digital nomad thing for some people is an adventure. And you've been in Malaysia. I've lived part-time in Malaysia for about 10 years now. There's not as many Westerners living in Malaysia anymore, at least digital nomad types. But when there were, they'd come for two years. They'd come for three years. Maybe I thought they would kind of keep it going longer. But I think that a lot of people realized, hey, after three years, we'll go back to Denmark and we'll have kids because you can't have kids in Malaysia, right? There's no kids around here. And for me, it was never an adventure. For me, it was a way of life. So now fast forward to COVID, a lot of the other political drama, a lot of the stuff that I think what people don't realize in the Western countries is just there's more competition. Like people in the U.S. are angry that their wages are flat. I think that's in part because people in Malaysia's wages have gone up and it's competitive and it's not a zero-sum game, have but it's also not a game where Americans can just, you know, have three cars and a five-bedroom house with one salary from a guy who didn't go to college. That's not going to fly anymore. I'm going to give people in Asia that get three PhDs, it'll still work for a third of the price. And so anyway, I think people are seeing some of that upheaval now, and people are looking at it as, okay, this isn't so much an adventure. This is serious. Either I want to create a plan B where I'm going to get residents permits in different jurisdictions to where I can skip the queue in, let's say the next COVID, where a tourist might have not been able to get in, but a resident could. Or I'm going to get some citizenships, at least one. I'm going to try and claim any citizenship through my family tree. I'll get a citizenship by investment. If I'm an entrepreneur, I can hire 20 people. Maybe there's a country that will give me citizenship for that, that kind of thing. So I'm going to get my residence permits and citizenships if I'm looking for a plan B. Maybe I'll open a bank account somewhere so I have some funds, that kind of thing. The plan A person is, number one, I'd like to save taxes, which comes from moving. You can't just move your assets, right? If you live in the United States and you invest in emerging markets, you're still going to pay tax in the U S even if it's in a place like a Singapore is the place where the emerging market investment is domiciled and there's no dividend taxes, no capital gains tax, you're still going to pay because you're an American. So if you want to move to lower your taxes and protect yourself from whatever might come next, that's the plan A. I think that's the question a lot of people are asking themselves now. And so it's kind of changed from I want people they travel for, you know, the dating opportunity that's kind of becoming bigger in some circles now. But for the high net worth people that we're working with, it's not seen as... The delta between my country is the best in the world and your countries aren't has radically shrunk. And I think that that's the issue. So it's not as much about an adventure anymore. And we have more people who are coming to us saying, okay, Ireland's tax friendly. Sounds like a good place to go and raise my Can I get into Singapore? And we have more people who are coming to us Ireland's tax friendly. kids. saying, okay, Sounds like a good place to go and raise my kids. Can I get into Singapore? Singapore is going to price itself out Now, for most people. But they're looking at places that maybe aren't as adventurous. I don't think Malaysia is that adventurous. I think it's pretty Western friendly. There's a little bit of a cultural difference. But I can understand why someone just starting out might be that's a step that's a little bit like, too adventurous. We're going to go to Italy. We're going to go to Ireland. We're going to go to Greece. Those countries have really good tax incentives. So I think that the higher net worth people look at some of those places. On the other hand, during COVID, we had people who said, yeah, I think I'm going to be safe in Nicaragua. That's where I'm just going to be left to live my life. So it's really all over the map. But I think it's a much more serious thing with the stuff I've been talking about for 10 years. People used to kind of laugh at it. And it was mostly tax-based business. I want to reduce my taxes. Now it's, I want to make sure I'm free. I want to make sure my money is free. I think that there, it's civil liberties, it's economic freedom. There are so many various factors of, especially things that maybe at one point were considered the core American values. People may have to design the life that makes the most sense for them overseas that way. Yeah. One question I do have is that this podcast has a lot of listeners who might be entrepreneurs who are already living in places like Singapore or Dubai, and they're not Americans. What are ways that Nomad Capitalist could help people who may already be living overseas or may not be Americans? Are there any services or are there reasons that people like that should also look into working with Nomad Capitalist? I mean, what I was going to say in terms of the evolution of me and the business, and they largely mirror each other, is we're really starting to work on HR tax planning issues and HR recruitment issues, because we have 65 people now. It wasn't much of a thing when you had four people. It really didn't enter your mind. And maybe that's a discredit to me for using myself as kind of the case study rather than thinking bigger along the way. But I think that I've built a business that solves the problems that I've had along the way. And the bigger I get, the more problems that I have that I have to solve. And then we go out and say, hey, are you aware of this thing? I think that there's probably a lot of unknown unknowns. I think that number one, a lot of people who aren't American, they follow this idea that as long as they don't spend 183 days in their home country, their home scot-free. We put out a piece last year and we got some cheers and we got some jeers saying that Australia is kind of moving to a quasi-citizenship-based taxation. Not that just that you're a citizen, but that they're going to make it hard if you've been a tax resident citizen to leave. And if you're just going to leave and just go forever and you're really going to move everything out of the country, then I think you'll be, I mean, not giving you tax advice, but that's not the issue. The issue is these people who have thought they can thread the needle and they have this mistaken idea that as long as you spend 182 days, now some countries it is, you know, tax residence is 183, some it's 180, I think one or two, it's like 181. But in that range, you can't just spend one day less. Now in some countries you can, like I think day less. Now, in some countries, you can't. Like, I think Montenegro or Colombia or something. It really is. If you're one day less, you're fine. But Australia, Germany, Canada, like, there's more nuance to it than that. And so if you've been trying to thread the needle and spend too much time back in your home country, that's an issue. Like, hey, I spent two more days in Singapore, and I have a rental house in Australia. Like, you might want to look at that tax situation. You might want to look at the tax implications of where your staff is based. If they're all in a place like Dubai, then that's probably not as much of an issue. But if you're hiring people around the world, remote workers, this is a big issue. We look at this. There's countries that really incentivize you to hire remote workers and they leave you alone. Albania specifically said, okay, we're not going to tax as permanent establishment people who have few employees in the country. But if I hire someone in the United States to do a sales job, I'm screwed. I might as well just send the tax immediately. And so I think people have built these remote workforces. They don't realize people have maybe taken money out of their company and built a personal wealth portfolios and stocks that they don't realize that there could be estate tax issues with that. So I think there's all kinds of potential tax issues. And obviously now, I mean, people living in Dubai, a lot of businesses qualify for the 9%. Again, I get jeered by the people who all they have to sell you as a Dubai company. So of course, their anger that I'm saying that most free zone companies in the UAE now have to pay 9% tax. There aren't nearly as many exemptions as we thought when they came out with it a year and a half ago. And I had a guy who's pretty close to a billionaire message me a month and a half ago being like, I like it here, but 9% when you're making as much money as I am. I mean, I'm not so sure that's the answer. That's more than my fair share. And I'm looking at alternatives. share. And I'm looking at alternatives. And so I think that if you rushed into it, and we all did to a certain extent, I mean, I, again, I never knew I would have 65 people when I left. And so I had to work up to that. But if you somewhat rushed and you didn't have someone look at things holistically, we had a guy a couple of years ago, his father was 80 years old, owned a bunch of US real estate. It's what's called a US situs asset. And it was just, it was not in a structure. For 10 grand, basically, we were able to protect that. But we had to make a few structural changes with a tax advisor that we work with. And otherwise, his father would have been paying like 40 or 45% estate tax when he died. Not on the capital, just on the whole thing. And nobody ever told him that. The US tax advisors for their like$7 million real estate investment would have had like this, I don't know, $2.8 or $3 million in tax. The guy's 80 years old. He's not going to last forever. Like nobody told him because nobody in the US specializes in foreigners, right? There are some treaty countries, but where they're from wasn't one of them. So I just think that there's a lot of unknown unknowns. And then on top of that, I do think, and I would be nuanced to this, if I'm a Westerner, really if I'm anybody, but especially if I'm a Westerner, I want to have a second passport because I think that the risks that a country like Australia is going to push more towards not letting you leave the tax nest. What I've said for years is, if you pay somewhere else, they'll probably leave you alone. But if you want to go to a tax-free country or a country they don't like because it's low tax, I mean, Malaysia even could be on that list as a territorial tax country. They might just say, hey, you still have to pay us and check your family tree. A lot of Australians, for example, have Greek ancestry that we've worked with. Get your Greek passport. Might take a couple of years. If you're not entitled to a passport, can you get something? I mean, some of these big hitters are getting UAE citizenship now. Kevin O'Leary, for example. I think Steven Seagal was given it. Like if you're at that level, maybe the UAE would give you a passport. But there are other countries that would do that if you're not at that level. Or if you make enough money, it might just be worth investing in having a passport. We had a Turkish entrepreneur recently. It's like, dude, best thing for you is spend a million dollars and lock in the best passport for all these four or five reasons. Now, if someone only has a million dollars, they shouldn't spend a million dollars. But I think beyond the tax unknown unknowns, people should prepare at a level of spend that's proportionate to their wealth and to the risk for a future where their country might try and tax them. Because I think that if you think these Western countries aren't going to lose a percentage point or two to the emerging world every year without a fight, I think to the emerging you're world every year without a fight, very sadly mistaken. I yeah. Sure, And I think that's sort of a comprehensive, consultative approach that what sets the service apart from something like just working with your tax accountant or a corporate secretary that tries guy on Instagram telling you to move to Dubai or something, right? That too. Definitely not that. Like there's no best place. If you want to move to Dubai, set up a company in Dubai, move to Dubai, get the residence permit, pay the 9% tax. By the way, here's a mistake also I heard recently. Oh, well, just pay yourself a salary. I talked to one of our in-house guys. He's like a tax law guy. And he gave me three reasons why it doesn't work. First of all, it doesn't work if you're an American because you have the foreign earned income exclusion. If you exceed that, you've got a US tax issue. But for everybody else, you can't have a company making $3 million a year and just take out $2.95 million in salary. Like, I think people really think of these governments that spend billions of dollars running their tax enforcement agencies, that they're going to be, you know, be foiled by some half-banked plot. I'll just take it all out as tax-free salary. It's like, yeah, they're one step ahead of you. And the fact that you don't get caught doesn't mean five years from now, they're not going to go through and just send everybody a letter and be like, yeah, we noticed you took out $13 million more than you should have for the last five years, so you owe us$1.2 million. If you want to live in Dubai and you're willing to pay 9%, I'm not saying 9% is the problem. My personal tax rate with some things I'm doing this year will probably go up a percentage point or two, which again, I mean, on a large enough base, I'm paying more in some of these places than the average person would. But for me, Dubai is a place I would live to pay 0%. I don't hate Dubai. I don't think Kuala Lumpur is more affordable, more soulful, just more connected to places that I want to be, kind of has more of the vibe that I want, speaks better English, I would argue, quite frankly, just on a day-to-day customer service level. You have heavier hitters that you can meet in Dubai, no doubt. And so if that's what you want to do, I'm not for or against any of these places. What I'm against is dogma. I think I've told you over the years, part of why I'm in Kuala Lumpur is because I like it. But part of it is just like, it's my rebellion. It's my contrarian nature to not be in Bangkok. Like, oh, everyone's going to Bangkok? Okay, what's the alternative? It's a little bit less popular. Okay, that's the one I want. And I think that's what makes people success. In your line of that's what makes work, people successful is finding the markets that's the one I And I think that's want. what makes people In your line success. of work, that's what makes people successful is finding the markets that have been left for dead and then buying it Sure, yeah. The first point is a key point that there's a difference between tax evasion and legal tax avoidance. And that's what we're trying to do here. We're not trying to do some of the things that people have gotten in trouble for. don't be angry that like Dubai used to be tax-free in the company and the personal level and then think that your cheap little hack is like it's not tax-free for almost any business anymore yeah onshore offshore if you're a guy like me who would have a uae free zone companies by the way it's terrible to manage remotely it's not designed for remote use it's not designed to people who aren't in dubai honestly the banks aren't the companies aren't more so the banks and you can't get a bank account in a lot of other places that you could for Hong Kong Cayman Islands even Belize or BBI you can get those bank accounts worldwide the UAE they don't really like to bank it around the world so all I'm saying is if you went for zero just take the loss you know like it means no longer the place even if you move your company to a foreign jurisdiction, they have certain permanent establishment rules now that you might have to pay on your foreign company to live in the UAE. So it's not even as flexible as some other jurisdictions. That doesn't mean I hate the UAE. It just means like, I, how can I help people? Maybe I'm too much to goody two shoes. I just kind of frustrates me trying to people trying to like make up their own tax law. Like it is what it is. If you're cool with that, stick around. 330 million people are cool paying rates as much as half of their income all into the U.S. government. I mean, you're in New York. People are paying half or more. Apparently they've agreed to that because they haven't left. So, okay. Like I don't judge that, but like, you know, like don't try to make up your own rules. And I think that's something that probably, again, a lot of that digital nomads 10 years ago that we were hanging out with who have matured now, and now they have, you know, 65 employees. You need a refresher on your plan. I'm not saying it to be sanctimonious. I'm saying because I know that you can get a letter five years later. And I don't think people realize that. Switching gears a little bit, you referenced that you chose KL. It's a bit more contrarian. A big aspect of the Nomad Capsules lifestyle is also lifestyle design and figuring out the places that fit the lifestyle that you want best. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about how you've designed your own lifestyle, how you've chosen to live in the lifestyle that you want best. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about how you've designed your own lifestyle, how you've chosen to live in the basis that you live, and maybe people who aren't familiar with the nomadic capitalist lifestyle, kind of just explain how that and nomad capitalist, what it really means is that, you know, if you live in the United States states for example you probably get an ancestors that came from somewhere else at some point 20 220 however many years ago idea that like their move which you thought was heroic and like good they made the right decision like you're proud of that right like that's the last time anyone in your family has to move like you think that was also the first time anyone in your family has to move? Like, you think that was also the first time anyone in your family? If you go back through your entire family tree, no one else ever moved. They were all born in Lithuania. And one time they moved, and that was it. The nomad means be prepared when things change to go. So people say, oh, well, maybe in 40 years, this country will have a civil war again. Well, you'll be prepared with other places. And I guess you'll go. But, you know, it's like, I can have a relationship right now. If I could have a friendship that would last 40 years, and would it be the best friendship ever, and then it blew up 40 years from now, I don't know, we had a disagreement over something, we stopped being friends. Would I say no to that friendship of 40 years? Because I just happen to know that 40 years from now it would end. I would take it and enjoy it for what it is for all those years. And so I think that people should appreciate things for how long they last. And when the relationship gets abusive, they have to be ready to go. Not the idea that because someone moved from Lithuania in 1908, that like they foresaw centuries ahead. Like, no, they did what was best for them. And if you think that's heroic, then you should do what's best for you. Let's be honest. People largely migrate for economic opportunity. People come to the United States mostly because they don't have any economic opportunity where they live. And we can talk about why that is. But if you already have economic if you already have wealth, opportunity, there's probably not much left in a country like the for U.S. you just to be beaten and abused. And not only do they want more and more of your money, you're not even respected as an entrepreneur these days. So let me just get back to the lifestyle. My lifestyle has evolved over the years. You don't have to follow my lifestyle. I created something called the trifecta, and I didn't even follow it perfectly. But the trifecta is three homes. You spend four months in each. If you like more of the emerging markets, like the ones you talk about, and you want to be around up and coming places, those may be more friendly for tax. So if you're not an American, or even if you are in some cases, you can potentially pay zero tax just because no one wants to tax you. Colombia says, well, you're not here for six months, four months, no tax. So I have a home in Colombia. I have never spent six months in Colombia. Therefore, I am not a tax resident in Colombia. I pay property tax, pretty affordable. Obviously, I pay sales tax on things when I go there. Colombia is a country that says, hey, you have money? Please come on in. We'll give you a permanent residence permit. We want you to bring your money here. Bring your dollars, convert them to pesos, buy property, spend money, create jobs. That's a reasonable deal for them. I don't take any of their social services. And I go, I spend money as a glorified tourist, except I've got a path to citizenship and I own an asset. During COVID, when Asia was getting worse in 2021, I went to Colombia and it was just starting to get better. And so I had places to go as things got bad. But the reason I wanted to be there was I think South America is an interesting place. I think there's a lot of opportunities. Colombia is, you know, one of the more free economies historically in Latin America. And they were willing to give me a permanent residence permit. So I got a little pianitaire there. I will go there for two weeks and a couple weeks from now. And that'll probably be the time I spend there this year. But whenever I need to do something in Latin America, that's kind of my base. I have a base in Kuala Lumpur. I spend a lot more time there. That's more of a tax friendly country. I can live there full year and pay very little tax legally. I'm starting to explore more here, you know, where I'm at in Ireland, just because I've been so many years in emerging markets. And it's nice to have people who are a bit more similar at times just as a part of the I've spent time in Eastern Europe and have some bases there. So my idea is take some money off the table, buy a couple of homes. They don't have to be huge. They can be pied-a-terres, apartments, condos, what have you. Diversify some money into other countries, other currencies. It's an asset protection plan. it often gets you residents or even citizenship in some countries and when things get bad you can go there when tax rates go up you can move to the different place so if i live in the us but i have my home in malaysia i could just decide i'm going to move over to malaysia maybe i'll give up my u.s citizenship and you know i've just got options i got my father and my parents to buy property in mexico they spent half their year in mexico and my father says hey with the direction the us going, it's pretty easy for me to just say, I'm not going to take that one flight a year back. I'll just never leave. But like you have to set yourself up for that. If like the idea that when things get terrible, then I'll buy a house in Mexico and get on the plane. No, you won't because you'll keep convincing yourself it's not going to get you know it's not this is rock bottom and it just like in our entire lives nick is it every year rock bottom for like personal freedom and economic freedom in a country like the us it just keeps getting worse i'm not saying it's the worst in the world oh well they go to somalia i didn't say that by the way way, there are Americans in Somalia, actually, for economic opportunity, but not a lot. I'm not saying I would take Somalia over the U.S., but that's not the choice that's presented. And in our lifetime, it's only gotten worse. So why wouldn't it get worse next year? Electing your candidates is not going to change anything. Maybe it will temporarily. I just saw something yesterday. Oh, they did the Trump era policy of whatever. Every four years they change it. You're four years away from being screwed. Wouldn't you rather live in a country of people, like as you know in Malaysia, some of the nicest people in the world. You know what their attitude is? Especially if you're a foreigner. Between you and God, we're not going to bother and god we're not going to bother you we're not going to you it's also why it's good to diversify and even if one country doesn't have everything that you're looking for that the u.s doesn't have if you have multiple options i mean people were laughing at me that i bought a property in Colombia, but it's a very small part of my world. I spent the minimum required, which is probably stupid. It's probably why I don't spend quite as much time there, because it's not as big of a property as I would have elsewhere. I paid the minimum, basically needed to get the immigration benefit, which by the way, during COVID did help me. Permanent residents, please come right in. Don't bother. We don't need you to do this. We don't need you to do that. Just you're welcome, like citizens. Whereas everyone else had to go through all the rigmarole. But anyway, the property went up in value. I think now it's probably slat. Maybe I think I get an appraisal up two or 3% in a couple of years. Sure, I could have put that money in the S&P 500 or Nvidia stock and been better off. But it's not my entire world. It's a fraction of 1% of my world. And I think it's a good diversification tool. I mean, I've already gotten use out of it. When times were tough, I spent four and a half months there in 2021. That's worth something. There were people who would have paid anything. I mean, I had people calling me saying, can you help me book a private jet? Canada won't let me leave the country i'm locked in my house and i can't even get in a plane to leave the country to escape this madness you think those people would have been happy to have a flat return on investment for a couple years to have a place that they enjoyed which by the way has helped me meet people in south america for my business because i have a presence there and i put the time in it's helped me be more productive when i'm there because i'm not productive in hotel rooms so that's helped the business. In the holistic picture, it's worth it. But not every investment takes off. I own a property in Turkey and it's gone to the roof in US dollar terms. Not lira terms, but dollar terms. Tbilisi, gone to the roof. So you win some, you lose some, is it all investments. But with my investments and with the philosophy that i teach you're getting diversification that um listen i'm i saw some article you can believe it you cannot believe it you can before trumping of the anti-trump there's people from the trump administration now the first one who are commenting saying if he gets re-elected i'm looking for non-extradition countries to move to. Listen, maybe you think they're nuts. I don't know. I mean, is that the kind of talk you would think you'd hear coming from the United States? Yeah. wouldn't it be nice to have a place to go? I like to play it so straight. And that's why I left the U.S. and gave up my citizenship. I mean, it really wasn't motivated by the financials. But other than it was frustrating filling up those forms every year to report every bank account from countries where they didn't make things easy because they didn't develop it for Americans who had to fill out these forms. There was a certain fear of what if I put one wrong number? Do you get in jail? You know what I mean? I don't want to get it wrong. I may not agree with the rules, but I follow the rules. And if I decide I don't like the rules, I go to a different game. And I think if you decide to leave the game, you should be allowed to leave the game. And I think that people should keep that in 10 years ago or so when we first started, it may have seemed like more of a crazy idea, but I think there are more and more Americans now who are actually considering that option. Better years too early a day too late, by the sure. Going to the event that you're hosting in September, the topic this year is frontier markets. I was curious why the focus on frontier markets. Does that signal a shift in your business or what's the interest and where does it no man capitalist live is our annual event this is the four we had a couple of events back in the 2010s and I stopped it because I was starting a client business and it genuinely frustrated me to see people coming to events and not doing anything. Like, it may be hard to believe I'm a capitalist. I like to run profitable businesses, but I also like to enjoy it. And I like to see people doing stuff. I don't want to be the guy selling hopium or selling the Get Rich book. So we stopped the events. When I brought it back, I wanted to make it more about action. I brought it back. I wanted to make it more about action. And so for this year, it's Nomad Capitalist Live 2024. We're focusing more on frontier markets. It's more capitalist, probably the same amount of nomad, more capitalist. And I think a little bit less of the doom and gloom because I think some of the disconnect between me when I put out a YouTube video and I talk about certain stuff, and I'm not quite as extreme as some people are in the U.S., I've left that world. I bet if I went back and lived in it, I would share more of their frustrations. I mean, listen, I'm never getting on board with like the lizard people are taking over the world, okay? But I'm sure I've probably softened a little bit because the problems that people living in a country like the U.S. have, I just escape those. Like, I can't get behind guys who spend their entire lives complaining about, you know, how women are impossible to get along with. You know, because it's like, not the women, you know, okay, I'm very good, but like, not the women that I've met over the years, you know. Like, so put yourself, like, my point is I'm kind of tired to an extent. Like I'm happy to keep preaching the message. I'm happy to keep telling people like, here's the tea leaves that I'm reading about. Yes, I think you need a second passport because more countries are going to try and tax you no matter where you go. I'm happy to share that kind of stuff. And maybe some people find that alarmist. I think it's going to happen. Everything my parents and I talked about on the table 25 years ago has happened. But I also want to give people actual alternatives because I realized I ran to something. I ran to better social opportunities. I ran to seeing emerging markets unfold in front of my very eyes. I wasn't running from something, but I think some people see it that way. And so I wanted to bring in a lot more of the frontier market experts like yourself and some of the people that you know, as many people are on that show, to tell people and to be like, here's what you can do by putting your money in other countries, but by taking advantage of the real opportunities that, again, are not just the Indonesia ETF. I don't think that's the best way to play it most of the time and so yeah we've got about a half a dozen frontier market experts we've got entrepreneurs from around the world from the blockchain and the crypto space to kind of other businesses they're going to be coming I think we've got like over 40 speakers and panelists Tony Fernandez who's the CEO of Air Asia, they started out with a million dollars. Now it's like the biggest airline in Asia. He's going to be talking. Nigel Farage, Mr. Brexit, is going to be talking. He's obviously very controversial, but he has a message. The message is where he's from and where I'm from and where you're from isn't what it's cracked up to be anymore. So it's going to be a little bit of that. It's going to be a lot of here's where you can Here's go. tax friendly countries you haven't heard about. Here's how we hire. Here's how we manage, you know, companies all around the world, like real life stuff. Here's passports that you haven't heard about. We talked to the clients about them. But you know, we had to go to Guatemala, for example, and knock on a guy's door to figure this thing out because you just can't find it online. We talk about some of that kind of stuff. So I'm a big believer in the nomad part, but I think that the nomad part needs to be fueled more by capitalists. And so I think that, to your point, frontier markets are going to play a big part of it because people want to run to something. markets are going to play a big part of it because people want to run to something and it represents more a shift to myself and what i think the business should be and what i think people should be focusing on and away from it's easy to complain i can make every video talking about cbdc's and i listen i think there's some real concerns there i also believe very much that if you set yourself up in the way that we talk about, you don't need to be nearly as angry. And so, okay, once you've figured out that part, what do you do next? market as one of For one thing, yeah, something to run to. And there's just a lot of exciting opportunity in these countries that are agnostic to whatever economic cycles that happen in this part of the world. Well, that too. That too. Yeah, people worry about a recession. Didn't come last year. People worry about a recession. Right. I mean, Cambodia, I guess, suffered. You know some of these markets better than I do. But, I mean, I guess there's a dip during COVID in some of them. Other than that, I mean, three decades, no recession in some of these places. Since we're running out of time, I'll just have one last question. If you had one message you'd like to share, let's say your last day on earth and everyone you know is going to be gone and you want to just leave one message, what would that be? Well, I look at it this way. I was born in Cleveland, Ohio. I always tell people, people from the United States, they say, oh, I'm sorry to hear that. But I was born in Cleveland, Ohio, in this kind of Rust Belt town, and right across the lake from Canada. And I often ask myself if I would have been born right across that lake. Tiny, an aberration of geography. I mean, so close in the scheme of the world to be born across a lake in a different country. I would have been born across the lake. I wouldn't have had all the different regulatory issues if I wanted, you know, like all the, like everything that's different about Canada. I mean, Canada is obviously kind of probably going the wrong direction these days also, but in terms of being able to leave Canada and be more personally free, would nomad capitalists even exist? Would there have been this frustration with like, why does the U.S. think they people to think about that. You know, I think there's, there's limits to libertarianism in the sense that if you're just a pure libertarian, you just sit around and complain all day in Quebec about how unfair things are. And I've seen so many libertarians over my life in numerous different businesses who they just, they're very smart people and never get ahead because the only one who knows Quebec. But there's a libertarian part of me that says, yeah, I mean, we're all subject to certain things because of these imaginary borders. And yet we constrain ourselves to that. I mean, people in Cleveland, Ohio, I imagine, think they're just as American and they celebrate the United States just as much as someone who's born smack dab in the middle of the country. And so we base our entire lives around like, oh, you're supposed to date people from Cleveland, Ohio. Well, I mean, I was an entrepreneur very early on, way before that was cool. I mean, now I guess it's cool to be 20 years old and be an entrepreneur, but not when I was young. And Chinese and German girls found that a lot cooler than American girls. And that's just one example. It has nothing to do with lowering your taxes. It has nothing to do with thinking that something terrible is going to happen, a black swan event. It's just one little example. The guy who left Portugal in 1993 to go to the US and get healthcare is a small example. We're conditioned to think that our country is the best. I think part of the reason I flock to emerging markets a lot over the years is because they have a very healthy and deserved skepticism about their government. They're like, yeah, why wouldn't you want to pay less tax? The government wastes it all anyway. And I think what we're seeing in our lifetime is this great reduction of the delta between opinions of the United States and opinions of some of those emerging world countries. I think that we're seeing that the United States is actually quite a corrupt country. It's just corrupt in different ways. And it's perhaps in many ways more corrupt. I mean, the wealthiest county in the United States is right outside of Washington, D.C. It's all the government contractors who go and sell consulting services, which is why the U.S. costs more to build homeless housing than it does in socialist European countries. Why? Because everyone around Washington, D.C. is getting fat and happy selling consulting, selling bombs, selling whatever else. That's not corrupt. So we're seeing a reduction in this delta. And yet people still kind of cling to, well, but it's still the best country well by a miracle of birth you were born in that country so i think look at it more as a miracle go where you're treated best and say if the women that i get along with are over here that's where i'm going to go if the place that wants my kind of business is over here, that's where I'm going to go. I mean, there's no benefit to suffering in silence. There's no benefit to martyrdom. You know, I talked about the Alexei Navalny death recently. I mean, courageous guy. It's a new one. You know, obviously, I mean, I think there's nuance with any country. I don't think Russia is the absolute number one. They never do anything right. And the U.S. absolutely never does anything wrong. But obviously, you know, he's a courageous guy. But I asked myself, could he have done more? I don't mean to besmirch him in any way, but could he have done more from Europe to actually impact things? Maybe that's not what he wanted to do, and I respect his decision. But I think to myself, I mean, if you can have more of an impact by going where you're treated best, you can lead a happier life that causes you to have more of an impact by going where you're treated best, you can lead a happier life that causes you to have more of an impact by going where you're treated best. Throw away those imaginary lines. Realize it was somewhat by chance. Realize you can also appreciate things for what they once were without totally throwing it away. You could appreciate having something for a season in your life. You could appreciate having that friend for 40 years of your life. You know, having that friend for 40 years of your life. You I know, think that's a healthy way to look at relationships, but there's a time for things to end. And I think that, you know, diversification and moving on from things that no longer serve you that you've been holding on to for the most dogmatic of reasons, it's patriotism, I think is the best way for you to be successful. Either side of the political aisle, you're on. People on both sides have identified corruption as the problem. And I think globalization is probably one of the root causes of what's causing so much anxiety in the U.S. But there's also a ton of ways you can benefit from globalization now. So you may as well take advantage of it. I mean, by the way, I mean, again, using Malaysia, look at all the video of Malaysia. I've given this example many, many times. Go back and look at Malaysia in movies 30 years ago. It looked a hell of a lot different. And you know what? Spending time in Malaysia with some of the kindest people that you'll meet, yeah, you know what? I'm glad that they have more economic opportunities. They may not be as wealthy as the United States, but they're out there. I mean, Mexico and Malaysia, I think, are two very kind of misunderstood countries in terms of the actual wealth that's in the country. I'm glad that people who have vastly fewer skills, people in other parts of the world win purely based on their geography. I think that anyone who wants that, it's a terrible thing. And so I'm happy to see that the places that I go around the world have been able to develop and they're going to continue to develop. And now even Africa, you're seeing a number of countries building very solid middle classes, about half dozen countries are really in the kind of solid middle class system. Nobody in the West is paying attention to that. You're paying attention to that. Your guests are paying attention to that. But the West, there's no Africa, it's poor, it's falling apart. It's like, well, maybe Africa is going to be the place to go 50 years from now for your children when the West totally implodes and they're coming for people. Just one possibility. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss some of these places. Totally. Looking at places like Kigali and Rwanda, it's probably much safer and cleaner than most U.S. cities at this point, 50 years from now. cities at this point, 50 years from now. Yeah, your daughter doesn't have to be harassed by a guy living in a tent doing cocaine at 2 p.m. on a Tuesday afternoon. a it was great to catch up. Thanks so much for joining the podcast. Always a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you,